NJ Saltwater Fisherman Forums
NJ Saltwater Fisherman => Fisheries Management => Topic started by: Capt. Ed on August 08, 2007, 11:24:27 PM
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Hi All,
I am for a Saltwater Fishing License.
Why? I have seen them work in Florida and California where I fish a lot in the Winter.
How ... we used to always claim that there were xyz fisherman and abc tourists that fished. And all told, some big $$$ was involved.
Like the NMFS data collection, it was a guess. With a license, there is no more guessing. You get an exact, realtime count of the people fishing.
There were designated areas such as the public pier in Naples that you did not need a license. Likewise, on head and charter boats you did not need a license.
It is politicians a real number of how fishing effects the economy.
As for the money, it disappears into the political machine but, so what.
That is my opinion ...
Please weigh-in.
Thanks,
Capt. Ed
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License???? no way just another excuse for the politicians to steal money..
Until they (fisheries management) decide to make the regulations equal across the coastline for mutliple species.. such as the fluke , stripers, blackfish, tuna, and now even sharks.. also start to get control on the overseas market.. This is all crazy BS..
There is to much variations on regs. up and down the coast thru out the migratory run of each species!!
The license bothers me for one reason when is the constant abuse on the wallets of sportsman going to end..We see enough of this abuse in the deer management system in NJ already..
Now, they are going to prey on the saltwater sportsmen...Its bad enough the steal most of the revenue we already generate..How much is enough!..
Sorry for venting.. just I'm Broke and this is another thing we face !!
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Hi Joe,
You have to get over this stealing money theme. That is a cop out.
Without some "thinking out of the box" these problems will not go away.
If a politician will listen to my needs because of the license, that is a small price to pay.
How about no license and a closed or nearly closed season for fluke. That is where we are heading.
What would that solve?
Thanks,
Capt. Ed
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First No politician ever listens!!
Second you can closed the fluke season.. Then you'll get some answers!!
Its always a money thing!!! its the world we live in!!
I just not a fan of another license.. You need to registar you boat!! Use that money and info to start with.. its already on record, better yet make them start to collect money from slips and boat ramps.. Theres plenty of data right there!! numerous boat in slips and boat ramps can take monthly averages of uses..
there's more ways to do a better job than a license.. thats all!
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Hi Joe,
The people to collect this data are where? The money to hire these people will come from where?
Also, trying to solve political corruption on the state level and federal fisheries mis-management simultaneously is, like you say, hopeless.
BTW, a Federal Registry for all fisherman is already mandated by Magnuson-Stevens. So, the Saltwater License is, in effect, here already. Whether or not the final license costs money or not will, I am sure, be the debate. I am sure all states will impose a License (to be paid for) so that they can receive the revenue rather than the federal government.
Thanks,
Capt. Ed
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I look at this way. If we, the people are taxed any further there will come a time when the system will collapse in on it self and we will self destroy. What is left, socialism. We will be totally dependent on the government to the point that our identity as a sovereign nation will be at stake. Yes this is extreme but it could happen.
First you create a license then you have to create an office or department to over see the licensing procedure. Once that is in place you will have to have a way to police this newly created set of laws and hire special law enforcement officers or add onto existing departments to handle the amount of poachers that will try to beat the system. How do we handle the raises every year of all these people and their pensions and not to mention insurances for them and their families. Government will grow even bigger than it is right now.
What does that mean for us, an increases in the license and what will we get in return, a larger governmental infrastructure?
No what is needed is a level headed body to say enough is enough and stop the over fishing by China and Japan and others who are probably laughing their heads off because they know we can't and if we could would not put a stop to their wasteful slaughter of fish every year. As are our own fishing industries up and down all of our coasts. Because of size limits how many fish are needlessly shoveled over the side to die.
I say push our Federal waters out to 250 NM and be done with it. Watch how fast the biomass bounces back. Clean up our bays and watch how fast the biomass bounces back. Clean up our estuaries that feed the bays and watch how fast the biomass bounces back. Stop affordable housing for shore communities and watch how fast the biomass bounces back. STOP WASTEFUL SPENDING on pork in our legislature and watch how fast the biomass bounces back.
What I'm getting at, just by creating a license will not stop the problem at hand. A series of events has to occur in order to fix this mess and until they are addressed the problem will fester out of control.
That is why every one has to open up and say I had enough and give examples and try to give answers because our officials are having a problem figuring out what is right or wrong with this situation.
If they can't understand the way you or I feel vote them out of office. Party lines are nice but when it comes to the future and my offspring being able to live in a world that freedom means something, Family comes first. Our little patch of ocean should be free to us, the keepers of a free society. That is what we are fighting for.
Sorry for the ramble.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Another thought is "Civil Disobediance."
Basically, some are advocating ignoring the law. There are not enough field people to regulate the rules anyway. If you do get caught, there is even some who say that it should be a "badge of honor" and you should get a bumper sticker.
My point to this thread is easy. Someone has the answer out there. However, no one has said it loud enough or to the right people.
Let's find these people.
I wish I could vote these people out. It will cost a ton of money.
Ed
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I wonder just how many saltwater recreational fisherman there are along our coast lines. Is there a National Alliance of Saltwater Fishermen?
I only ask these questions because I have been out of fishing for certain reasons and now that I am back all I see is big brother continuing to mess up a sport I once loved and am starting to appreciate once again.
The incompetence of the fisheries management is so obvious and yet nobody can see what is actually wrong? Until we get a mass of people all pushing in the same direction I am affraid this rock is to heavy and we will never move it.
You as only one drop in the vast ocean of people can not make much of a difference. All the money in the world would not help. What we need is sincere hard working people to stand up for what they believe in and push that rock till it starts to move. Once we feel movement will we start to notice a change starting.
Change is good...don't ever be afraid of change.
Paul
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For years I was always against aSalt Water and license until i looked into it.
Florida SPorts Fisherman were getting hmmered just like us, and everytime they went to court to try and stop the over regulation they were rebuffed because they had no "HARD NUMBER" on how many sport fishermen there were.
They instituted the SW license and have been winning every fight, because now they have the "HARD NUMBER" and Florida puts the revenue back into Fisheries Management.
Should thie be guarenteed in NJ I would be all for it, but if they are just going to rob the mney no.
Either way, the way the Magnuson Stevenson Act is written you will have a national license by 2011.
We have to do something otherwise this sport is dead..........and as Tom Fote said in his email "they do not take into consideration the economic trickledown effect"
Just my 2 cts worth
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Hi Capt. Bob,
I had a number of posts I made last night concerning Magnuson-Stevens and the saltwater registry. I took them done as I re-read the reauthorized Manguson-Stevens Act and did not see that provision.
Is it still there or removed at the last minute (which I think)? I did not even see it on any fact sheets or JCAA summaries.
Any ideas?
Ed
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I was always opposed to a SW licence but I've changed my mind because of the reasons pointed out above.
Florida is a great example of how to do it right. They have a net ban on inshore waters and have made the Redfish a gamefish. As a result the recreationl guide business is booming and Redfish are more popular than ever. As for the party and charterboat industry, the license is included in the fee or fare.
It should be administered by the div of Fish and Game with all revenue going to F&G.
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Just my thoughts,
There is a simple solution but I am sure there would be objections to this as well.
As soon as you are able to posses a drivers license in this state and that is as soon as you turn 16 you are eligible to apply for a drivers license. A simple questionnaire could ask if you fish in saltwater if the answer is in the affirmative all it would take is a few key strokes to put it on that license. If you don't drive you probably have a ID card that looks like a drivers license that is given out by the county or state. Again all it would take is a few key strokes and it is on there.
This way they will have their information to start and if a license is needed afterwards the process is already in place and at no extras cost to the public.
Children under age 16 should be exempt, like I said as soon as they apply for their DL it would registered that they fish in salt water.
Again only my $.02
Happy Catching
Paul
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Paul for President!!! You made some very good points Paul.
As far as a saltwater fishing license. I am for it IF, and only if, the money goes back into the saltwater fishing arena. However, in the State of New Jersey this will never happen. The money will go into the general fund and be spent on some useless project that would benefit only a few.
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Tying it with the DL could never be accurate.
I agree it should not go in the general fund...F&G gets the money, no question.
I look at it as sort of like voting...if you don't vote, you don't have a voice and can't complain. If we don't have a way of identifying ourselves in a direct and accurate way, we don't have a voice.
I think having to put up with a licence is a small price to pay as long as it's done right.
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60 dollars is not a small price to pay. It could come to that. Just look at California.
The DL is used for the boating license now as well I do not see what is wrong with using it.
As far as an accurate count you will never get an exact count due to the fact that children who fish with parents will not be counted. At best it will be a very close estimate . Anything is better than them using arbitrary formulas to come up with an amount they hold true to.
Paul
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The reason I think the DL count wouldn't be accurate is because there are a lot of people who don't go fishing often enough to think about checking a box every 3 years. Also, there's no real stick to enforce it...Is someone going to not go fishing because they didn't say they were 2 years ago when they got thier DL renewed? If you do enforce such a thing, it would hurt the party, charterboat and bait shop business because the occasional fisherman couldn't go because he's not going to want to sit at the DMV to get the proper endorsement on his DL...
It would take a lawyer, beurocrat or lobbyist 10 seconds to punch a hole in any numbers gathered from it...
I agree there are a lot of problems and issues and I hate to give the government any more money than I have to but if it's done right we'd benefit...granted, that's a big "if". I wouldn't want to pay a dime unless the money goes to F&G for thier initiatives.
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The license would be for guide line reasons now anyway.
In Florida Charter boat (head boats), piers, and jetties are not part of the licensing system anyway so count them out of the equation if you use their system.
The big sticking point right now is numbers. How to get a better count on the amount of people that need to be factored into the equation.
Why create a whole system when one already exists? More money wasted. I am sure people would, at the time for renewal take the time to register and check off a little box to get a license waver on their DL, especially if it was available over the internet.
We had to go through that point system when everything changed to the new DL so why not just factor it in at renewal time? To me it is simple and easy to understand. In the meantime between DL's a small sticker could be affixed on the back like a trout stamp but not as big.
Just my way of thinking.
Paul
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Any way they do it is nothing more than BIG BROTHER is watching. They are taking away our freedoms more each and every day.
Does anybody think the government really cares about the fish? The way things are being done I have a hard time believing that.
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the idea of all of it is a joke.. License ..no license..
They need to get a realistic measures for the coast..
I say use my boat registration fee as away to get numbers.. Who knows what happens to those funds.???
I f I get charge for a license then what the hell do I need to have a $50 boat safety course.. Where's that money going.. Look its not being put back into the system at all.. example Coast guard station shutdown!!
Shark river is a prime example!!
Its going to be a situation thats conitnues to get worst before ever getting better..I like to see more emphasis on the dead loss factors of commercial quotas .. start adding that in !!
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I agree Joe,
But the problem is the formula they are using now it has estimated numbers that are probably inflated to a degree that might make a grown man cry.
To take that away it would be better to give them the numbers they are looking for as long as for right now it doesn't cost anything.
Lets see how close the actual numbers are to theirs. Then if they are right maybe I could agree on a fee for the license. But if they are wrong concessions would have to be made to do proper studies and think this through in a manner suitable to all sides.
Paul
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Hi Joe,
I will say this one more time.
Any corruption that you feel is in the system will not go away.
Money is needed for two (2) reasons. We, as a collective group of fisherman, need to fund independent research and get our own data collection system. That takes scientists and equipment. The RFA and JCAA are having fund drives for that.
The US government and NJ state do not have enough money for anything ... no roads; no schools; no nothing. So to ask them to just magically come up with cash to fund research on fishing is not going to happen. They think they spend enough already.
You may have an arguement that we can spend the money that we have better. Fine - then Congress should look at NOAA and make changes. There does not seem to be any political will to do that.
The US is already broke ... we borrow more money than all countries on the planet together!
You think that a fishing license is a tax that you can't handle. Wait until someone has to start paying for these wars and all the other borrowing ... that will be real taxes.
Ed
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The salt is the last bastion recreational consumptive use of wildlife for free so it's understandable to not want to give it up without kicking and screaming.
If you want to hunt wildlife, you need a licence which goes in part to pay the biologists etc to manage that wildlife and improve opportunities to use it recreationally. The same goes for freshwater fishing and trapping. We don't have such a system in salt water so we constantly get $crewed.
Belive me, I agree with most of the arguments against it but I feel that haveing a licence and the voice that comes with it is the lesser evil.
BTW, in Fla, the guids etc pay a fee to licence thier customers while they're aboard.
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AND ANOTHER THING...I hope you all see this a a friendly discussion...no hard felings. Disagreemt is what gets things done ;D
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Capt Ed..
I can agree with you on the US being Broke.
We need to stop sending money to countries that never repay.. The war,, well we all know that a huge waste of billions and precious lives..
On the state Level.. all the money is wasted!!
An why would a millionaire take a job that pays nothing to him.. oh the political kick backs!! the greasy palms..
When it comes to the fisheries and hunting in the state.. I truly believe sportsmen are tired of flipping the bill for so called scientific data that every year gets worst..
This debate will never end but until we as sportsman get the shaft in the end..
I would love to see me commercial restrictions, little is every mentioned in these debates .. Whether here on the site or in the papers!! I think thats were sportmen get tired of being push on the regs.. While commercials quotas stay steady in the percent of the catch!!
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Hi Joe,
I agree that the first thing that should be done is 50/50 split between comms and recs.
This 60/40 stuff so people can have "cheap fish" is absurd.
Can we agree on this also?
We will keep a count ...
1. USA government and NJ state are broke.
2. The war is a wast eo fmoney and precious lives.
3. We need to spend more wisely.
4. 50/50 Split ???
See, we are not so far our of whack ... (LOL).
Ed
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Truthsss TT^
I will say this if I charter my prices will incorporate the the fee put upon us..
another I will push and have learned from other license Captain who charter is the urge to push the catch and release on trophy fish!!
Once I have my license I believe my role will be much more present at mutliple meeting!!
I know why wait??? Well.. its a personal choice!!
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Ed
There are no provisions in Magnuson but the prohibition of a salt water license expires in 2010 opening the door for one in 2011 >:(
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Hi Capt. Bob,
I re-read my notes. There was language for the registry in the Legislation and it was removed.
You are correct!
Many thanks for helping out my failing memory,
Ed
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Ed
And as sure as the sun comes up in the morning you can bet we will have one :-\ :'( :'( :'(
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Scientists need to start cloning fish eggs, not pigs.
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i'd pay for a marine fishing license but as said i'd want the money to go to the right place.
my roomate currently tracks our local pine snakes located in the pine barrens and does animal relocations. if an area is being cleared he goes in and counts all animals he can find and relocates them. nice job but not much money.
his first love is our local fish though and he's an ichthyologist that did extensive work tracking our local stripers and any biology having to do with them....again not much there in the paycheck.
to work with fish one must love fish alot more than money it seems. it would be really nice if this state would look more east and put some time and money in our waters. I see no reason why this state can't become a worthwhile fishing destination like florida.
are any of our reefs or any other structure there thanks to the state or is it all donations for them?
sorry to ramble...long day at work and bad weather on the water :-\
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are any of our reefs or any other structure there thanks to the state or is it all donations for them?
sorry to ramble...long day at work and bad weather on the water :-\
Back in 1984 when the State took over the Federal permits for the reefs there was a one time influx of fine money from the nuclear plant's fish kill. Since then the reef program has been mainly financed with Wallop-Breaux funds and donations from recreational fishermen and divers. The Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration program (Wallop-Breaux funds ) is an excise tax with “10-percent excise taxes on fishing equipment (fishing rods, reels, tackle, etc.); 3-percent sale price imposed on electric outboard boat motors and sonar devices; 1 ½-percent to 5-percent import tax on tackle, pleasure boats, and yachts (motor boat parts, sails, propellers, boat hulls, inflatable boats, sailboats, motor boats, rowboats, yachts, floating docks, inflatable rafts, buoys, sailboards, and sailboard parts); 1.08-percent tax on motor boat fuel; and 0.29-percent on small engine fuel.”
http://federalasst.fws.gov/sfr/fasfr.html (http://federalasst.fws.gov/sfr/fasfr.html)
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As far as a saltwater fishing license. I am for it IF, and only if, the money goes back into the saltwater fishing arena. However, in the State of New Jersey this will never happen. The money will go into the general fund and be spent on some useless project that would benefit only a few.
whs
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Hear Hear...
This state hasn't shown me that a saltwater license is worthy of my time and effort to get. The monies will be peed off onto some pet project of some politicians and never benefit those who pay the license (tax) in the first place.