NJ Saltwater Fisherman Forums

Boating => Boating General Discussions => Topic started by: Byzandula on June 18, 2008, 03:27:28 AM

Title: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on June 18, 2008, 03:27:28 AM

First off, this is my first post to the board and I am not a native to the area (see landlocked). I have been on several offshore fishing adventures since I have been on the East Coast (blues, stripers, tuna) and have loved every minute of it. I would like to purchase a boat and am wondering what size of a boat it would take to get out to the canyons with adequate safety. I am looking for general guidelines and advice. Is there any trailer-able options that would reach out that far, or am I better off chartering a ride out each time I want to go? I am also hoping to use the boat to fish larger lakes in the area as well and hoping to have overnight options. I want to keep the price-tag under the $100k mark if at all possible. I have looked at the bayliner discovery 246 but am pretty sure it won't have the fuel capacity needed to get out that far (81 gal).

Thanks in advance,

Dayton

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Luna Sea 5 on June 18, 2008, 03:53:36 AM

welcome to the site

This is a difficult question.  You need a boat big enough to hold enough fuel, power to get back safe, then you have to pick a good weather day... I wouldn't do it with anything smaller then a 26', but this is just my opinion.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Hotrod on June 18, 2008, 05:31:15 AM

Welcome to the site Dayton.

Friend and Member Overtime does it often.  He runs a 23' Parker Pilot House. As many will tell you here.  it will be a fuel concern.. and to use the 3rds formula.
1/3 gas out
1/3 gas back
1/3 gas (other).

I believe that's correct. I know other's know more on this than I do.

Let me see if I can get overtime to break his silence here and chime in for you on his knowlage doing it in his 23'r

again

welcome to the site.

Rod

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: mboy on June 18, 2008, 05:57:18 AM

i wouldn't go in anything less then a 28-30' with more then ample fuel capacity (and a bunch of safety gear) like ePIRB, ssb OR SAT Phone, life raft etc.

You don't realize how far 80-100 miles out is if you have never been.

No joke out that far.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: IrishAyes on June 18, 2008, 06:46:05 AM

First, welcome to the site.

As far as canyon running. If you are new to the game, which is what I am thinking, you would be much better off jumping on charters. There are many more factors to fishing the canyon than having a large enough boat. Some being, knowing what area is producing, safety equipment, fishing tackle that would be specific for the canyon, etc. Being an experienced boat operator would also be a major factor at that distance offshore.

The expenses that you occur owning a boat capable of the canyon would pay for many canyon charters.

That boat would not be very well suited for trailering or for most lakes in this area.

Don't forget the possibility that frustration may build up if you have several 0 producing trips (always a possibility, even on a charter). That in itself may turn you off to canyon fishing. You will then be in possession of a great boat that you have no use for.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on June 18, 2008, 09:20:10 PM

Thanks all, for the warm welcome.

I am pretty torn as far as what type of ride to get right now. I am looking for a boat that will do it all (pull a water skier, have fishing options, be able to go out into the ocean (probably not anywhere near canyons from what I've been reading), be trailer-able, and have possibly have overnight accommodations. Does this boat even exist or am I fooling myself? I am certainly not in a rush and if it takes a few years to find what I'm after, then so be-it. This site is a great resource!
  t^

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: IrishAyes on June 18, 2008, 09:27:15 PM

I would sit down and think seriously about what you want the boat to do mostly. There are no boats out there that that I am aware of that are a good compromise for everything or even several different things.

Consider what you will be doing MOST with the boat and make your decision on that.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: fishon42 on June 18, 2008, 09:29:46 PM

im to afraid to go out that far unless im on a chartar... and if you knew me, youd think id be the first to take a boat out there on my own.. NO thanks... i dont mess with the ocean, especially not that far out... good luck and hope u make the right choice  t^

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Reel Time on June 18, 2008, 10:09:34 PM

 little more than what you want to spend, but might be able to find 1 used for around there.

 31' fountain with 204gal tank with another 40 gals optional. max cruisin range at abouts 300 miles

 and it will do it all, 'cept sleep of course. but some cc do have berths in the front.


(http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/boats/fish/images/31CC_mn.jpg)

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on June 19, 2008, 02:35:00 AM

Anyone know anything about Hydra-Sports boats? Reliability wise and such. I'm looking at the specs for the 2900VX and it looks quite impressive.

http://www.hydrasports.com/mInfo.cfm?mid=5285

(http://www.hydrasports.com/vImages/0/0/3/003901.jpg)

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: mboy on June 19, 2008, 09:58:42 AM

They make a nice boat.

Do you know anything about boating?  Fuel burn (like boats get 1-2 mpg, not 20-25 like cars).
Rods/reels to fish the Canyons will run you several thousand for a few decent setups.

Tolling rigs at $50-75 a pop.

Bait easily $500+ per trip?

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on June 19, 2008, 12:07:57 PM

I am educating myself about all of the expenses. The good part about my situation is that I have several family members and friends that love to go out as well and chopping the cost of fuel, bait, and so forth will be a very nice thing.

I am still undecided on the ride that will fit me best, I'm just in the data gathering stages at this point. I may well end up with a 20'er that I don't take out too far and hit blues and stripers and take lake fishing. I'm actually leaning more that direction at this point until I have more experience.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: IrishAyes on June 19, 2008, 02:54:02 PM

Quote from: Byzandula on June 19, 2008, 12:07:57 PM

I am still undecided on the ride that will fit me best, I'm just in the data gathering stages at this point. I may well end up with a 20'er that I don't take out too far and hit blues and stripers and take lake fishing. I'm actually leaning more that direction at this point until I have more experience.

That would be what I would do. Get the experience on a smaller boat and work your way up. You can make a more informed decision on your final boat going that route. Keep in mind, the first boat you buy will not be the last one you buy.  TT^

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Reel Time on June 19, 2008, 03:05:16 PM

 so true joe,, on forums all over the net there is always the question how how big of a boat to do so and so.

 in reality, the answer is, how capable of a captain are YOU! your ability to make good informed decisions will save your ass more than a boat size will.

 for instance, got 1st boat last year(ocean capable) 21footer, going in and out of barney inlet at 1st was real hairy at times and scared me a few, legs shaking and all. now a year later it doesnt even phase me, i just plow on through that crap like its nothing cause my confidence is that much higher.

 am i ready for the canyons yet? even if i had a capable boat, no i am not ready. but i am ready i feel to hit up barnegat ridge which is 15-20 miles out and do it with confidence. by making decisions on what is being caught where, water temps, and the most important deciding factor to go or no go, would be weather/marine forcast for the past week and week to come.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: brickken on June 20, 2008, 11:15:24 AM

Quote from: Byzandula on June 19, 2008, 02:35:00 AM

Anyone know anything about Hydra-Sports boats? Reliability wise and such. I'm looking at the specs for the 2900VX and it looks quite impressive.

http://www.hydrasports.com/mInfo.cfm?mid=5285

My previous boat was a 2002 Hydrasports 2800WA. Great boat, good range (I think had 300 gallon tank)with twin 225's... I got it at a very good price used. Went to a few boat shows and liked it. Asked the dealers if they had any they had recently taken in on trade. Just that day they had taken one in at the show, flipped it to me for the price that they gave the previous owner.

I would take it to the mud hole and 25-40 miles off shore but never went to the canyons in it. Had a narrow beam wasn't comfortable with how it would handle in 6-8's which can come up pretty quick when you are out there. Just my two cents (though I loved the boat and did allot of the other activities you enquired about).

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on June 22, 2008, 10:40:19 PM

The main challenge I am going to face in this whole endeavor is getting buy-in from my better half (wish me luck). From everything I've read I'm really liking the Hydra-Sports Vector 2200DC (or comperable) as a mostly fishing/pull the family around on a tube type of boat. http://www.hydrasports.com/mInfo.cfm?mid=5289 (http://www.hydrasports.com/mInfo.cfm?mid=5289)
(http://www.hydrasports.com/vImages/0/0/7/007671.jpg)

I have settled on wanting a trailer-able boat that has a main fishing focus with water sports on the side. Is this boat offshore capable and do you think it can do the mudhole under good conditions? I'm sure any 8'6" beam could be tricky, I'm just looking for limitations that I would have with this ride. Safety is my first concern and wouldn't be taking it out that far unless I was with a more capable captain.

D

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: bayonne on June 23, 2008, 02:58:35 PM

im not a boat owner but do know lots of them from north nj the tuna grounds are pretty far out one person i know will trailer down to cape may were the tuna grounds are 1/2 the distance the further south you go the off shore grounds get closer in nc the gulf stream is only 30 miles out but they say you still have to pick your days if your in a 20-25 fter

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: mchizhik on June 24, 2008, 06:07:32 PM

STAY AWAY FROM BOWRIDERS
 Not a good canyon choice. Not good for any offshore stuff, If you like living. 1 wave over the bow of one of those, and  slt.
Bow riders work well for fishing beer from the cooler, and are great for skiing, but if you want to really fish, walk away from all of them.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Capt. Mike on June 24, 2008, 09:40:28 PM

Look at Trueworld single diesel nice range, canyon capable. Can do it in a 25' walk around or cabin need to pay attention to weather, winds, and current, versus fuel economy. 1 gal 1 mile good rule of thumb. Troll out during daylight, slow burn of fuel, anchor up for chunk 1400' of line, troll home. Look for Roffs reports... Good luck.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: ryko on June 26, 2008, 12:55:43 PM

Two more cents for consideration. Make sure you purchase a good hull, do your homework along with the no nonsense advice you get here. Having crossed many oceans and raced all types of boats you must have a solid hull for "offshore" ventures. Motors can always be replaced but not the hull. Hydrasport is a good choice especially their Vector series hulls, they a very solid and have a decent deadrise to enable you to obtain the maximum ride in the "snot". The other thing you want to consider is resale, the better the boat the better the resale. Good luck and don't hesitate to ask.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: captmoose on July 07, 2008, 11:34:55 AM

This really is a loaded question.  I grew up working charter boats out of Cape May, including canyon trips.  I also have my captains license and sailed on ocean going cargo ships so I've seen quite a bit from small boats to large ships. 

The main consideration should be safety and seaworthiness.  If you have some friends with boats about the size you are considering, ask them to take you outside on a snotty day.  When you are running offshore, you have to pick your days carefully around the weather and then watch it when you are out there.  We've had to head home into some real nasty 8-10' swells when some weather kicked up. 

Whatever boat you choose should be able to stand up to any foreseeable weather that can kick up over the course of the day.  You may be able to run out in good weather at 25-30 knots in just  2-3 hours, but if you have to put your bow into large waves that kicked up during the day, you will most likely have to run slower which takes longer and if the weather is building, it only gets worse as time passes.   

It's not only about comfort, fishability, and endurance, the boat has to safely run in whatever the weather can produce while you're out there.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: ped579 on July 07, 2008, 02:10:33 PM

Good advise and welcome to the site I posted to your thread and forgot to say hi.  Sorry for the oversight.

It sounds like you will settle in nicely here Welcome Aboard.

Happy Catching

Paul

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on July 11, 2008, 11:42:04 AM

I just returned from a trip to Alaska where we went out (out of Seward) in my brother-in-law's 24' Hewescraft Alaskan with dual Yamaha 115's.
 (http://www.hewescraft.com/2007/media/alaskan/ak_01.jpg)
Each of the 3 days we went out, it handled well in the 2'-4' seas. We ended up catching about 7 different species of fish including silver salmon, black bass (and other rockfish), ling cod, and halibut. I brought back a bunch of meat. It was a fantastic trip and I highly recommend a visit if you have never been there. This trip pretty much solidified the fact that at some point I will be buying a boat. I loved the enclosed cabin up front when it was raining, but it was pretty hard on the back while underway as there is a lot of pounding sitting that far forward. I'm leaning toward a center console or walk-around with an outboard engine (+ trolling motor) at this point, but still have a lot of research to do. I appreciate all of the friendly advice!

D

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Art Berkman on July 11, 2008, 11:47:12 AM

Quote from: Byzandula on July 11, 2008, 11:42:04 AM

I just returned from a trip to Alaska where we went out (out of Seward) in my brother-in-law's 24' Hewescraft Alaskan with dual Yamaha 115's.
 (http://www.hewescraft.com/2007/media/alaskan/ak_01.jpg)
Each of the 3 days we went out, it handled well in the 2'-4' seas. We ended up catching about 7 different species of fish including silver salmon, black bass (and other rockfish), ling cod, and halibut. I brought back a bunch of meat. It was a fantastic trip and I highly recommend a visit if you have never been there. This trip pretty much solidified the fact that at some point I will be buying a boat. I loved the enclosed cabin up front when it was raining, but it was pretty hard on the back while underway as there is a lot of pounding sitting that far forward. I'm leaning toward a center console or walk-around with an outboard engine (+ trolling motor) at this point, but still have a lot of research to do. I appreciate all of the friendly advice!

D

Welcome to the site.

Wow that is a very cool looking boat !


Inquiring minds wanna know  ;)

How wide is the Beam ?

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on July 11, 2008, 12:08:47 PM

It is a very nice boat. Aluminum is great in Alaska as they have a ton of rocks out there.

Alaskan Boat Model    Length    Beam    Inside Depth    Deadrise Forward    Deadrise Amidships    Deadrise Aft 240 AK           23' 1"    102"       30"                    42°                             25°                                 15° 260 AK           25' 7"    102"       30"                    42°                             25°                                 15° Boat Model    Bottom Gauge    Bottom Width    Side Gauge    Side Height    Aft Deck Livewell/ Fishbox    Transom Livewell/ Fishbox 240 AK    .190"    84"    .125"    36"    NA / 51 gal    26 / 47 gal 260 AK    .250"    84"    .125"    36"    NA / 51 gal    26 / 47 gal Boat Model    Person Wt. Capacity    Person Capacity    Max Wt. Capacity    Max Prop HP.    Actual Weight 240AK    1725 lbs.    12    2850 lbs.    300    3100 lbs. 260 AK    1738 lbs.    13    2928 lbs.    450    3700 lbs.

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Art Berkman on July 11, 2008, 02:26:26 PM

Thx for posting the specs  t^

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: rossg on July 11, 2008, 10:58:28 PM

Going to the Canyon is very serious.I have a 28 Grady with twins and would not think of going in anything less then 40ft
Fighting Tuna,being up for 24 hours,weather that happens when it isnt supposed to is alot to contend with
Stay inshore,plenty of big fish and lots of adventure to contend with
Ross G
The Lady J
Belmar

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: PHIL on July 29, 2008, 03:02:43 PM

I have a friend that runs his wellcraft also made by the same company as hydrasports. (genmar) 28ft. out to the hudson canyon twice a month. First thing is definetly make sure you have enough fuel and where your sweet spot is. Second but just as important TWO engines. EPIRB,or SPOT. it ain't no joke out there bro. help even with EPIRB could still take a few hours to get to you. We saw it last week with that 80ft. boat that capsized 50 miles off of atlantic city. Epirb was activated and it still took 3 hours to get to them. Have fun but do the right thing. Safety ALWAYS first. slt

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Luna Sea 5 on July 29, 2008, 03:08:34 PM

Quote from: rossg on July 11, 2008, 10:58:28 PM

Going to the Canyon is very serious.I have a 28 Grady with twins and would not think of going in anything less then 40ft
Fighting Tuna,being up for 24 hours,weather that happens when it isnt supposed to is alot to contend with
Stay inshore,plenty of big fish and lots of adventure to contend with
Ross G
The Lady J
Belmar

whs

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: dikdanger on August 22, 2008, 03:06:09 PM

Quote from: Byzandula on July 11, 2008, 11:42:04 AM

I just returned from a trip to Alaska where we went out (out of Seward) in my brother-in-law's 24' Hewescraft Alaskan with dual Yamaha 115's.
 (http://www.hewescraft.com/2007/media/alaskan/ak_01.jpg)
Each of the 3 days we went out, it handled well in the 2'-4' seas. We ended up catching about 7 different species of fish including silver salmon, black bass (and other rockfish), ling cod, and halibut. I brought back a bunch of meat. It was a fantastic trip and I highly recommend a visit if you have never been there. This trip pretty much solidified the fact that at some point I will be buying a boat. I loved the enclosed cabin up front when it was raining, but it was pretty hard on the back while underway as there is a lot of pounding sitting that far forward. I'm leaning toward a center console or walk-around with an outboard engine (+ trolling motor) at this point, but still have a lot of research to do. I appreciate all of the friendly advice!

D

TOO COOL... I'd take on the Perfect Storm in that thing....


I would love to have an interceptor... I would roll it like in the Coast Gaurd videos... get some 5pt harnesses on my seats... woohooo

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: Byzandula on September 19, 2008, 02:16:41 PM

Are there many aluminum boats on the east coast? They seem to be pretty popular in the northwest. I don't see many dealers of these types of craft in the area. I guess the nearest comparison to these guys would be the parker pilot house boats. Riding that far forward definitely beat you up a little, but being able to come in out of the elements is a very nice feature particularly if you have ladies on board.

Any thoughts on aluminum?

Title: Re: Smallest boat for canyons
Post by: dikdanger on September 22, 2008, 02:49:58 PM

Quote from: Byzandula on September 19, 2008, 02:16:41 PM

Any thoughts on aluminum?

yeah... its great to take to a scrap yard for beer money chrz